Carlton Supporters Club

It’s not quite as clear cut as some folk may think ...

The quote is from an article titled “Think gender comes down to X and Y chromosomes? Think again” written by Peter McNight and published in the Globe and Mail, 4 Jun 2015 (updated 15 May 2018).

There are many other scientific articles addressing the myriad conditions that blur our concepts of gender.

I’ll have a go at answering your questions.

1. I would have to know the basis for Mouncey’s gender re-assignment.  She may well be genetically female.  However, I share your concerns about the advantages her maturing as a male gives her over the majority of VFLW players.  I’m not sure that she is good enough to play AFLW but that’s based on second hand observations.

2. Go for it!

3. Remember the transgender tennis player?  She was going to ruin women’s tennis but hardly fired a shot.  Apart from size and residual strength acquired as a maturing male, I don’t think that the Mouncey situation is unfair to aspiring female athletes.  Other factors, such as leadership, team membership, ability, determination and mental health should level the playing field.

4. No.  I don’t believe that blokes will undergo gender reassignment to cash in on women’s footy or any other sports.

I haven't really followed her career but is she....

a) dominating at the level she is currently playing at.
b) causing physical damage to other players due to her size and strength.

Isn't McNight famous for writing an article titled, "There is no such thing as a natural born woman!"

But again, McNight makes use of circumstances when things go genetically wrong to justify his stance, it makes him come across almost as a gender denier. But again his whole stance is built on minority circumstances.

Again, when things go wrong for any number of associated reasons will not a suitable standards to use in this case.

Humans are born with 46 chromosomes in 23 pairs. The X and Y chromosomes determine a person’s sex. Most women are 46XX and most men are 46XY. Research suggests, however, that in a few births per thousand some individuals will be born with a single sex chromosome (45X or 45Y) (sex monosomies) and some with three or more sex chromosomes (47XXX, 47XYY or 47XXY, etc.) (sex polysomies). In addition, some males are born 46XX due to the translocation of a tiny section of the sex determining region of the Y chromosome. Similarly some females are also born 46XY due to mutations in the Y chromosome. Clearly, there are not only females who are XX and males who are XY, but rather, there is a range of chromosome complements, hormone balances, and phenotypic variations that determine sex.

The biological differences between men and women result from two processes: sex determination and differentiation.(3) The biological process of sex determination controls whether the male or female sexual differentiation pathway will be followed. The process of biological sex differentiation (development of a given sex) involves many genetically regulated, hierarchical developmental steps. More than 95% of the Y chromosome is male-specific (4) and a single copy of the Y chromosome is able to induce testicular differentiation of the embryonic gonad. The Y chromosome acts as a dominant inducer of male phenotype and individuals having four X chromosomes and one Y chromosome (49XXXXY) are phenotypically male. (5) When a Y chromosome is present, early embryonic testes develop around the 10th week of pregnancy. In the absence of both a Y chromosome and the influence of a testis-determining factor (TDF), ovaries develop.

Gender, typically described in terms of masculinity and femininity, is a social construction that varies across different cultures and over time. (6) There are a number of cultures, for example, in which greater gender diversity exists and sex and gender are not always neatly divided along binary lines such as male and female or homosexual and heterosexual. The Berdache in North America, the fa’afafine (Samoan for “the way of a woman”) in the Pacific, and the kathoey in Thailand are all examples of different gender categories that differ from the traditional Western division of people into males and females. Further, among certain North American native communities, gender is seen more in terms of a continuum than categories, with special acknowledgement of “two-spirited” people who encompass both masculine and feminine qualities and characteristics. It is apparent, then, that different cultures have taken different approaches to creating gender distinctions, with more or less recognition of fluidity and complexity of gender.

Mouncey is a former male Olympic / Commonwealth games athlete, an athlete who competed in conditions that required gender clarification. Was it wrong then?

President of Handball Victoria Kirsten Lange said she was proud to be part of such an inclusive sport, which she said was growing every year.

"All players come in all shapes and sizes. As a taller or maybe a bigger player, it is difficult. Hannah is a bit taller, she jumps a bit higher. Therefore you need to go out further, quicker in order to stop her."

Mouncey's strength and size are not seen as an unfair advantage, though, rather just other aspects for opponents to take into account when facing her on the court.

"So I think it's just a matter of finding a handball skill to stop her. We don't have a problem with that. We have other players who may be a bit larger in size as well and we have to stop them," Ms Lange said.

Not a contact sport and not relevant, it's like arguing against trans-gender ten pin bowling participants.

What hope that little girl if she collides with a Mouncey type during a contact sport?

Maybe not, but if they were former male athletes and they have re-assigned why not join in? I won't at all be surprised to find some failed NBA athlete who has re-assigned decide that a good living can be made in the AFLW, after all isn't that exactly what Mouncey is, a failed male Olympic /Commonwealth games athlete now re-assigned for whatever reason and joining in the AFLW?

I don't give a stuff about Mouncey's welfare, whether she plays or doesn't, but I do feel sorry for her in the circumstance. My major worry is about the genetically female 54kg athlete who is going to compete against a transitioned athlete with 20 or 30 years of testosterone driven bone and muscle development to build an AFLW career on. What happens after the fact is almost but not totally irrelevant, at least we seem to agree on that!

Thry, one of my former colleagues did a PhD on sex and gender and I must admit that my eyes glazed over when she tried to explain her conclusions.

I have little idea of the relationship between chromosome abnormality and transgender but, from a couple of case studies I have seen/read, there is a biological basis for at least some gender reassignments.

It’s not as clear cut (no pun) as it may seem, regardless of one’s point of view.

As a 64 year old male athlete I'm struggling to keep up with similarly aged female athletes

Age is a big leveller

DJC, you keep arguing that a few births in a thousand is the good basis for this Mouncey situation, when it is clearly not!

In that 1000 there are hundreds of other females who will never play AFLW for any number of reasons, Mouncey's story should be one of them, there should not be special rules put in place for the minorities and exceptions!

And yet Lods, a 52 year old transition college professor competes head to head with teenage female athletes!

Isn't that a clear sign of inequity?

Is it not as simple as ensuring that any gender reassignment has to begin before puberty to ensure, as Juddy points out, you don't get the testosterone benefit before transitioning?

That is have your hormone blockers before the testosterone can have an irreversible physical effect on your body.

Of course you are welcome to have them after that in your life, but would be excluded from womens sport.

There's merit in this approach but it assumes that the individual will know whether they are male or female before puberty and that may be asking too much.  I have read of cases where little Johnny or little Betty has known that their assigned gender is wrong while they are in their first decade ... but what if they have got it wrong?

It is Pandora's box of worms and I'm glad that I'm not responsible for coming up with a workable solution.  However, the sooner we move on from stereotypical gender classifications the better.

After all, chromosome abnormalities occur in about 0.5 to 1 per cent of all live births, and that's much more than a few births in a thousand.

The point I am making is that your hypothesis that failed male athletes will undergo gender re-assignment for financial gain simply doesn't stack up.