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Re: General Discussions

Reply #2130 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Good to see one of the Nazi Bootcamp (held in Elwood today) people wearing a Carlton Footy Club cap...not! Great publicity for our club.

We have to accept that among all groups of society, you are going to get people who have different values.  Those values don't reflect the values of the Carlton football club.  They can support Carlton, and can also participate in a variety of activities the club may not want to be involved in.  That is one facet of being an inclusive club you cannot control. 

That being said, what is constituted to be a Nazi bootcamp, is a different question. 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/white-supremacist-bootcamp-takes-over-elwood-beach-20250215-p5lcel.html

Doing these activities of itself doesn't actually qualify it as anything.  Taking a photo with the flag doesn't either.  The party's ideology's may be viewed as Neo Nazi by others, but it is conceivable that not all of them will be members, and not all of them will be of the same thinking re-anti semitism.

Hopefully thats all that is.  We wont know for certain, but lets not pound people into submission.  Often they are attention seeking.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2131 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Good to see one of the Nazi Bootcamp (held in Elwood today) people wearing a Carlton Footy Club cap...not! Great publicity for our club.

We have to accept that among all groups of society, you are going to get people who have different values.  Those values don't reflect the values of the Carlton football club.  They can support Carlton, and can also participate in a variety of activities the club may not want to be involved in.  That is one facet of being an inclusive club you cannot control. 

That being said, what is constituted to be a Nazi bootcamp, is a different question. 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/white-supremacist-bootcamp-takes-over-elwood-beach-20250215-p5lcel.html

Doing these activities of itself doesn't actually qualify it as anything.  Taking a photo with the flag doesn't either.  The party's ideology's may be viewed as Neo Nazi by others, but it is conceivable that not all of them will be members, and not all of them will be of the same thinking re-anti semitism.

Hopefully thats all that is.  We wont know for certain, but lets not pound people into submission.  Often they are attention seeking.
Thry we all know full well what they were doing there.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2132 –
I was at Fitzroy yesterday, there was a swastika tattooed skinhead couple roaming down Smith St wrapped in Filth scarfs, the disturbing thing is that they didn't stand out!

I think they were heading to the Gaso Early Openers, or maybe that is the Gaso Never Closer!
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2133 –
The woman who attacked the two Muslim women at the Epping shopping centre has been released on bail despite the police opposing bail on the grounds that she posed an unacceptable risk to others and that her victims were now living in fear.

In granting bail, the magistrate said that the potential jail sentence facing the accused could be shorter than the time she would likely to be on remand.

The accused, who repeatedly disrupted court proceedings, has a previous criminal history of around 130 charges, including assaults, threats to kill, criminal damage, thefts and breaching court orders and was on four sets of bail when she attacked the women.

Yes, she has mental health issues and was self-medicating with alcohol and weed, but surely the magistrate has to give more weight to the threat she poses and the message sent by granting yet another set of bail.




It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2134 –
Says to me a couple of things:
 - Jail time only protects society while the offender is there as there aren't sufficient programs or opportunities/support for re-hab
 - Re-offending is accepted by the courts

Possible Solutions:
 - Greater support/intervention early - short term expensive
 - Longer jail time - long term expensive


Re: General Discussions

Reply #2135 –
A politician just put a police commissioner to the sword largely because of crimes committed by offenders who had already been bailed multiple times, we should not be surprised.

Fool me once ..................
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2136 –
I accept that prison rarely leads to reform or discourages re-offending, particularly when the offenders have mental health issues.

However, when bail is appropriate, magistrates should be able to set strict conditions that reduce the threat of re-offending while on bail. 
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2137 –
Quote from: DJC – on
I accept that prison rarely leads to reform or discourages re-offending, particularly when the offenders have mental health issues.

However, when bail is appropriate, magistrates should be able to set strict conditions that reduce the threat of re-offending while on bail.
Some of the kids that are the new political excuse / smokescreen have been bailed 10, 20 or even in one case nearly 30 times already, my understanding from talking to members of VicPol is that there is basically a handful of repeat offenders responsible for a huge percentage of the crime.

Keeping them under raps by putting them in remand won't fill up the jails because so much crime is being done by so few, but it will have a huge impact on street crime and police resources. Resources that are overburdened because of the courts.

Life is not like a video game.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2138 –
Quote from: DJC – on
The woman who attacked the two Muslim women at the Epping shopping centre has been released on bail despite the police opposing bail on the grounds that she posed an unacceptable risk to others and that her victims were now living in fear.

In granting bail, the magistrate said that the potential jail sentence facing the accused could be shorter than the time she would likely to be on remand.

The accused, who repeatedly disrupted court proceedings, has a previous criminal history of around 130 charges, including assaults, threats to kill, criminal damage, thefts and breaching court orders and was on four sets of bail when she attacked the women.

Yes, she has mental health issues and was self-medicating with alcohol and weed, but surely the magistrate has to give more weight to the threat she poses and the message sent by granting yet another set of bail.





The joint is farked. Vicpol is in turmoil, Allen Gov is clueless, laws are useless, this place is tialor made  for crims, terrorists, neo nazis and louts. When does the community get to say nuffs enuff and the have this dealt with.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2139 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: DJC – on
I accept that prison rarely leads to reform or discourages re-offending, particularly when the offenders have mental health issues.

However, when bail is appropriate, magistrates should be able to set strict conditions that reduce the threat of re-offending while on bail.
Some of the kids that are the new political excuse / smokescreen have been bailed 10, 20 or even in one case nearly 30 times already, my understanding from talking to members of VicPol is that there is basically a handful of repeat offenders responsible for a huge percentage of the crime.

Keeping them under raps by putting them in remand won't fill up the jails because so much crime is being done by so few, but it will have a huge impact on street crime and police resources. Resources that are overburdened because of the courts.

Life is not like a video game.

That is evident in the crime statistics. 

What's not evident is how do you stop them.  In many cases, incarceration is the equivalent of a post-graduate qualification in criminality.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2140 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: LP – on

Some of the kids that are the new political excuse / smokescreen have been bailed 10, 20 or even in one case nearly 30 times already, my understanding from talking to members of VicPol is that there is basically a handful of repeat offenders responsible for a huge percentage of the crime.

Keeping them under raps by putting them in remand won't fill up the jails because so much crime is being done by so few, but it will have a huge impact on street crime and police resources. Resources that are overburdened because of the courts.

Life is not like a video game.

That is evident in the crime statistics. 

What's not evident is how do you stop them.  In many cases, incarceration is the equivalent of a post-graduate qualification in criminality.
Incarceration stops them being out on the street and accumulating 100s of more charges over and over again resulting in heartache for the community and those affected by their crimes. Nuffs Enuff.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2141 –
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Incarceration stops them being out on the street and accumulating 100s of more charges over and over again resulting in heartache for the community and those affected by their crimes. Nuffs Enuff.

Yes, but we can’t legally lock them up and throw the key away.

We need someone a lot smarter than me to think outside the box when dealing with offenders who simply don’t share society’s values and aren’t fazed by the threat of custodial sentences.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2142 –
Two things for a start...
Not solutions but a different way of looking at things...let the 'experts work out how these are accomplished.

Indigenous young offenders are overly represented in the Juvenile Justice system
They need a different approach both pre, during and post incarceration

Kids with mental health issues and intellectual disabilities should not be placed in the same facilities as the general population.They are the targets of bullying and manipulation.

In some respects I'd also favour longer sentences tied to some form of educational qualification before release.
You can't achieve a great deal in educational terms with three or four month committals.
If a fifteen year old can't read when he begins a short sentence...he probably still won't be able to read after 3 months.

Day release and work experience prior to release is another one.
And post release support, while it occurs, needs to be upgraded.

The problem is, all these things cost money.
Justifying it to a public that sees institutions as a place of punishment rather than rehabilitation can be a bit of a task.



Re: General Discussions

Reply #2143 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Yes, but we can’t legally lock them up and throw the key away.


Maybe not under the current system. The softly, softly which assumes everyone can be rehabilitated has got us where we are now. It seems to me there are some that are incapable of being rehabilitated and need to be institutionalised permanently (humanely of course). I think parents and guardians (irrespective of the family situation) need be held way more accountable for the minors under their control. The ratbags aren't fazed by occasional custody because it's not a penalty. That is, the penalties aren't even commensurate with the crimes let alone harsh. Australia is the best country on the planet no doubt about it. However the increase in youth crime and violence is totally unacceptable. There should have been a coordinated National Task Force established years ago to combat the escalation. When I say task force, I dont mean a bunch of coppers with guns and batons, I mean senior coppers, laywers, KCs, Judges, Senior Politicians, experts in youth crime prevention from here and abroad, etc etc. workshopping new laws, new methods for assessing and dealing with repeat offenders. There seems to be nothing going on and it's getting further out of control. In the meantime, ordinary law abiding citizens are living in fear, selling up moving houses, abandoning businesses, this is just not on. This cannot continue, this system is broken and it needs to be fixed as a matter of priority. Prioritised ahead of any train stations, rail loops, tunnels, airport railways, new sports stadiums etc.
2021-Pi$$ or get off the pot
2022- Real Deal or more of the same? 0.6%
2023- "Raise the Standard" - M. Voss Another year wasted Bar Set
2024-Back to the drawing boardNo excuses, its time
2025-Carlton can win the 2025 AFL Premiership

Re: General Discussions

Reply #2144 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Quote from: Gointocarlton – on
Good to see one of the Nazi Bootcamp (held in Elwood today) people wearing a Carlton Footy Club cap...not! Great publicity for our club.

We have to accept that among all groups of society, you are going to get people who have different values.  Those values don't reflect the values of the Carlton football club.  They can support Carlton, and can also participate in a variety of activities the club may not want to be involved in.  That is one facet of being an inclusive club you cannot control. 

That being said, what is constituted to be a Nazi bootcamp, is a different question. 

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/white-supremacist-bootcamp-takes-over-elwood-beach-20250215-p5lcel.html

Doing these activities of itself doesn't actually qualify it as anything.  Taking a photo with the flag doesn't either.  The party's ideology's may be viewed as Neo Nazi by others, but it is conceivable that not all of them will be members, and not all of them will be of the same thinking re-anti semitism.

Hopefully thats all that is.  We wont know for certain, but lets not pound people into submission.  Often they are attention seeking.

I'm afraid that we do know for certain that these folk are neo-nazis Thry.  ASIO has been consistently warning of the growth of neo-nazi groups for several years now and it's submission to the recent Senate inquiry into right wing extremism provides concrete examples.  The report of that Senate inquiry is also very informative and you can find it at:

https://parlinfo.aph.gov.au/parlInfo/download/committees/reportsen/RB000315/toc_pdf/RightwingextremistmovementsinAustralia.pdf

Then there's the recent stories of two families trying to deal with family members who have embraced the nationalist-socialist ideology:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2025-02-17/neo-nazi-extremist-intervention-radicalisation-four-corners/104930828?utm_source=sfmc&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=abc_newsmail_am-pm_sfmc&utm_term=&utm_id=2504460&sfmc_id=278657882

There's no doubt that these people are neo-nazis and represent a significant threat to our way of life.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!