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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7455 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
Anecdotal evidence isn't anecdotal evidence when it proves your point?

A friend of mine....

No peer reviewed studies?

The country that had the world's most lenient covid restrictions was sweden:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

27000 covid deaths from 2.7 million reported cases.

No it wasn't a walk in the park, but letting it rip didn't kill everyone either.

There were some unfortunate people who got very sick from it, and im not going to pretend it was a walk in the park, but the numbers don't back the science and the science likes to pull at the emotive heart strings like the road toll advertisements do.

No one is even reporting positive cases anymore but get scared one of lps friends said that it's getting bad again.

Anecdotal evidence doesn’t prove anything but it can provide context.  Just as my COVID experiences were very different to my mate in the UK, other CSC contributors will have had a range of different experiences both in terms of infection and the socioeconomic impacts of control measures.

While the importance of social isolation and quarantine measures to reduce community transmission of COVID-19, particularly in the early stages of the pandemic, cannot be understated, the potential impact of those measures on the psychological health of the population must be considered as part of the public health response.  Relatively simple screening and mitigating interventions could have reduced the impact of control measures on vulnerable folk.

The number of excess deaths due to COVID is well-documented.  As of 31 May 2022, the Institute of Health Metrics and Evaluation cited 6·9 million reported deaths and 17·2 million estimated deaths from COVID-19.  Locally, Tony Kirby wrote in Lancet in December 2023:

“The last time that an infectious disease ranked in the top five causes of death in Australia was in 1970 (influenza and pneumonia combined). However, COVID-19, after being successfully kept under control when Australia closed borders between 2020 and 2021, has surged into the top three causes of death in 2022. There were 9859 deaths due to COVID-19 registered in Australia in 2022, and the infection was mentioned as a contributing factor on a further 2782 death certificates. Ischaemic heart disease (19 858 deaths) and dementia, including Alzheimer's disease (17 106 deaths), were the only top two causes of death above COVID-19. The data on causes of death in Australia are reported by the Australian Bureau of Statistics.”

What does the future hold?

The Lancet Commission on lessons for the future from the COVID-19 pandemic states:

“This staggering death toll [from COVID] is both a profound tragedy and a massive global failure at multiple levels. Too many governments have failed to adhere to basic norms of institutional rationality and transparency, too many people—often influenced by misinformation—have disrespected and protested against basic public health precautions, and the world's major powers have failed to collaborate to control the pandemic.”

One of the Commission’s key recommendations is:

“The world requires globally coordinated efforts to bring an end to the COVID-19 pandemic on a rapid and equitable basis. Countries should maintain a vaccination-plus strategy that combines mass vaccination, availability and affordability of testing, treatment for new infections and long COVID (test and treat), complementary public health and social measures (including the wearing of face masks in some contexts), promotion of safe workplaces, and economic and social support for self-isolation. A vaccination-plus strategy with the goal of protecting populations should be implemented on a sustainable basis, rather than as a reactive policy that is abruptly turned on and off.“

I don’t know if LP’s friend is on the Lancet Commission 😇





It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7456 –
I’m comfortable with the way Australia handled Covid. I think the combination of lockdowns, masks, distancing and vaccines was the right way to go. Covid was an unknown. Nobody knew exactly what they were dealing with, and under such circumstances the approach that embodies the old dictum “it’s better to be safe than sorry” is the right way to go. Consequences and fallout are inevitable, whether you follow the cautious / conservative path or you let it rip. I certainly prefer the former.

As a small aside, I heard Michael Osterholm a while back say that scientists and infectious disease specialists have warned governments for decades that an outbreak like covid was inevitable and not a matter of “if”, but “when”. This is an international rather than national issue, since no country listened and no country was prepared. So far as I can tell, the international community seems to be repeating the same mistakes of the past. I don’t see any nation gearing up for the next outbreak.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7457 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
I’m comfortable with the way Australia handled Covid. I think the combination of lockdowns, masks, distancing and vaccines was the right way to go. Covid was an unknown. Nobody knew exactly what they were dealing with, and under such circumstances the approach that embodies the old dictum “it’s better to be safe than sorry” is the right way to go. Consequences and fallout are inevitable, whether you follow the cautious / conservative path or you let it rip. I certainly prefer the former.

As a small aside, I heard Michael Osterholm a while back say that scientists and infectious disease specialists have warned governments for decades that an outbreak like covid was inevitable and not a matter of “if”, but “when”. This is an international rather than national issue, since no country listened and no country was prepared. So far as I can tell, the international community seems to be repeating the same mistakes of the past. I don’t see any nation gearing up for the next outbreak.
^^^^^
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Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7458 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
The country that had the world's most lenient covid restrictions was sweden:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

27000 covid deaths from 2.7 million reported cases.
Correct, 400% higher death rate than Australia's 11,853,144 cases and 24,414 deaths.

btw., Sweden health authorities have approved more COVID vaccines than Australia.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7459 –
Quote from: PaulP – on
As a small aside, I heard Michael Osterholm a while back say that scientists and infectious disease specialists have warned governments for decades that an outbreak like covid was inevitable and not a matter of “if”, but “when”. This is an international rather than national issue, since no country listened and no country was prepared. So far as I can tell, the international community seems to be repeating the same mistakes of the past. I don’t see any nation gearing up for the next outbreak.

Epidemiologists like Prof Catherine Bennett have expressed concern that our governments are not acting on the learnings from COVID.

I agree that our governments’ responses to COVID were pretty good, but they were winging it and should have been better prepared. 

Another pandemic is inevitable and it would be intolerable if we weren’t prepared, and that includes countering the misinformation that led to far too many people disrespecting and protesting against basic public health precautions.
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7460 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
The country that had the world's most lenient covid restrictions was sweden:

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/sweden/

27000 covid deaths from 2.7 million reported cases.
Correct, 400% higher death than Australia's 11,853,144 cases and 24,414 deaths.

btw., Sweden health authorities have approved more COVID vaccines than Australia.

See this is exactly why the numbers can't be trusted.  Sweden's deaths from the numbers were 400% higher with the same total.

As a percentage of positive cases.

Tell me, how is it that a population of 10 make it 11 million people have less total cases but let it rip?  20% of their people were positive but somehow we were stricter and we have 11 million cases from 25 million people.

Hmm rubbery figures.  Bet you all if them were on deaths door.
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7461 –
Quote from: Thryleon – on
See this is exactly why the numbers can't be trusted.  Sweden's deaths from the numbers were 400% higher with the same total.
I suspect it's too easy to simplify the stats when countries have vastly different demographics and society, the Nordic countries naturally isolate far more for example.

If your premise / assertion was correct about COVID, then if anything you would expect the death rate to be lower in those countries that have a more isolated lifestyle, but that wasn't that case. Probably the best examples are neighbouring states with different policies, for example Germany and Czecia, one has 2000 deaths per million, the other 4000.

The trend I discussed is just that, a trend and it is global, of course there will be outlying figures but it's clear less vaccinations meant more deaths, the evidence is overwhelming, the effects of other quarantine regimes is perhaps less clear but what is clear is quarantine slows the rate of infection even if it doesn't ultimately stop it, slower means hospitals have a chance. The UK learnt it the hard way, they refused to quarantine and were burying people by the thousand in vacant lots.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7462 –
Quote from: LP – on

Don't be like the two faced individuals of the past and clog up the hospitals begging for last minute assistance, suck it up and die like a man!

Fear Fear Fear.

Do you also think smokers should get treated for smoke related cancers or those with obesity shouldn't get treated for diabetes or heart disease or what about teenagers that speed and then have a serious car accident. Just leave them to die on the side of the road? Or is it only COVID your concerned or more accurately obsessed with?

Fear forced healthy teenagers, healthy young pregnant mothers and even children to take an untested vaccine on a pandemic that in those age and health demographics they had a greater chance of dying of a TV falling on them then of COVID. Our dictator leader locked them out of society unless they obeyed his instruction.
 
Wont ever forget that. 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7463 –
Quote from: LP – on
Quote from: Thryleon – on
See this is exactly why the numbers can't be trusted.  Sweden's deaths from the numbers were 400% higher with the same total.
I suspect it's too easy to simplify the stats when countries have vastly different demographics and society, the Nordic countries naturally isolate far more for example.

If your premise / assertion was correct about COVID, then if anything you would expect the death rate to be lower in those countries that have a more isolated lifestyle, but that wasn't that case. Probably the best examples are neighbouring states with different policies, for example Germany and Czecia, one has 2000 deaths per million, the other 4000.

The trend I discussed is just that, a trend and it is global, of course there will be outlying figures but it's clear less vaccinations meant more deaths, the evidence is overwhelming, the effects of other quarantine regimes is perhaps less clear but what is clear is quarantine slows the rate of infection even if it doesn't ultimately stop it, slower means hospitals have a chance. The UK learnt it the hard way, they refused to quarantine and were burying people by the thousand in vacant lots.
the hospitals are clogged because no Medicare equals go to the free service rather than a gp where you pay unless you have an appointment.

I'm not sure when it changed but fee for gp became standard.  Can't recall last time I got bulk billed for something.  When did that get taken off us?
"everything you know is wrong"

Paul Hewson

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7464 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Epidemiologists like Prof Catherine Bennett have expressed concern that out governments are not acting on the learnings from COVID.

I agree that our governments’ responses to COVID were pretty good, but they were winging it and should have been better prepared. 

Another pandemic is inevitable and it would be intolerable if we weren’t prepared, and that includes countering the misinformation that led to far too many people disrespecting and protesting against basic public health precautions.

Yes, I agree. I would have thought that in the interests of prosociality, if nothing else, people would accept that not only did the various measures (masks vaccines etc.) help them, they were also doing the right thing by others.

Misinformation is much harder to counter. Mostly because it is now a living, breathing example of the Bannon idea of "flooding the zone with sh1t". Garbage here or there is manageable, but the lies are everywhere, all the time.

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7465 –
Quote from: shawny – on
Fear Fear Fear.

Do you also think smokers should get treated for smoke related cancers or those with obesity shouldn't get treated for diabetes or heart disease or what about teenagers that speed and then have a serious car accident. Just leave them to die on the side of the road? Or is it only COVID your concerned or more accurately obsessed with?

Fear forced healthy teenagers, healthy young pregnant mothers and even children to take an untested vaccine on a pandemic that in those age and health demographics they had a greater chance of dying of a TV falling on them then of COVID. Our dictator leader locked them out of society unless they obeyed his instruction.
 
Wont ever forget that.

You’re telling porkies!

All of the vaccines used in Australia went through the normal testing regime.

This is what the epidemiologists and health professionals are concerned about; misinformation that can influence the gullible 🙁
It's still the Gulf of Mexico, Don Old!

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7466 –
Quote from: shawny – on
Fear Fear Fear.
Aptly and accurately title post, you're a fear mongerer, or perhaps just a trypanophobe in hiding.
"Extremists on either side will always meet in the Middle!"
 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7467 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: shawny – on
Fear Fear Fear.

Do you also think smokers should get treated for smoke related cancers or those with obesity shouldn't get treated for diabetes or heart disease or what about teenagers that speed and then have a serious car accident. Just leave them to die on the side of the road? Or is it only COVID your concerned or more accurately obsessed with?

Fear forced healthy teenagers, healthy young pregnant mothers and even children to take an untested vaccine on a pandemic that in those age and health demographics they had a greater chance of dying of a TV falling on them then of COVID. Our dictator leader locked them out of society unless they obeyed his instruction.
 
Wont ever forget that.

All of the vaccines used in Australia went through the normal testing regime.


 :o

Unless they knew years in advance COVID was coming its impossible 'normal testing' was performed.

Talking utter rubbish 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7468 –
Quote from: DJC – on
Quote from: shawny – on
Fear Fear Fear.

Do you also think smokers should get treated for smoke related cancers or those with obesity shouldn't get treated for diabetes or heart disease or what about teenagers that speed and then have a serious car accident. Just leave them to die on the side of the road? Or is it only COVID your concerned or more accurately obsessed with?

Fear forced healthy teenagers, healthy young pregnant mothers and even children to take an untested vaccine on a pandemic that in those age and health demographics they had a greater chance of dying of a TV falling on them then of COVID. Our dictator leader locked them out of society unless they obeyed his instruction.
 
Wont ever forget that.

You’re telling porkies!

All of the vaccines used in Australia went through the normal testing regime.

This is what the epidemiologists and health professionals are concerned about; misinformation that can influence the gullible 🙁
I tell you who is talking porkies..... For one the usual clinical trials for COVID vaccine were skipped and there are other short cuts they were forced to take due to the circumstances.

I understand why just be refreshing if you could be understanding as to why some folk were apprehensive and why giving this sort of drug to demographics that were not at serious risk raised eyebrows.

Just for a second try and see that perspective without replying with a insult about how ignorant i am.   

 

Re: CV and mad panic behaviour

Reply #7469 –
Quote from: shawny – on
Quote from: LP – on

Don't be like the two faced individuals of the past and clog up the hospitals begging for last minute assistance, suck it up and die like a man!

Fear Fear Fear.

Do you also think smokers should get treated for smoke related cancers or those with obesity shouldn't get treated for diabetes or heart disease or what about teenagers that speed and then have a serious car accident. Just leave them to die on the side of the road? Or is it only COVID your concerned or more accurately obsessed with?

Fear forced healthy teenagers, healthy young pregnant mothers and even children to take an untested vaccine on a pandemic that in those age and health demographics they had a greater chance of dying of a TV falling on them then of COVID. Our dictator leader locked them out of society unless they obeyed his instruction.
 
Wont ever forget that. 

Whoa there Shawny old son. Take a deep breath, step back mate. During a pandemic it can be helpful to widen the aperture to see the bigger picture. State and Federal leaders were in an invidious position, they were faced with the unknown and something that could well be fatal for many, many folks. I'd hate to be in the position of holding so many people's lives hanging on my decisions and I would defer to the expertise of those who understand far better than moi as to best actions to take. Enter epidemiologists, immunologists, virologists and the like.

Extreme contagions require extreme measures: lockdowns, which nobody liked. Then there's the backlash of folks not wanting to have their freedoms curtailed, which leads to all manner of frustrations, annoyances and even rebelliousness. Talk about a no win situation! Tough gig. Then, for some, the blame game and scapegoating ensued, mm, fertile ground for the conspiracy theorists... even alarmists who hysterically claimed that the vaccines were untested and even harmful!

Bottom line is that State and Federal leaders did the best they could with the advice of the medical specialists - the best people to turn to in such situations. I get my car serviced by a motor mechanic, not a chiropractor.

Unfortunately all the time-machines were in the workshop at the time of the pandemic so no-one could travel forward in time to look back and assess the best course of action. Apologies for being a smart@rse but hindsight condemnation and criticisms are the domain of the short-sighted and engendered, misinformed folks. Hindsight is better used to objectively assess and better prepare for future pandemics. Forewarned is forearmed.

Only our ruthless best, from Board to bootstudders will get us no. 17